Taken from RIUVA. So Odex has finally done it. Singapore’s anime community is doomed. Oh shit. So anyway some poor guy probably wet his pants after receiving this letter.
WTF zOMG H4X!
BTW the organization mentioned in the letter AVPAS (Anti-Piracy Association of Singapore) is similar to the RIAA/RIAS except that Odex appears to be the sole active member. The organization has obtained authorizations from various Japanese studios to represent their rights for all their copyrighted works, even those that are not licensed by Odex for distribution in Singapore. The full list of titles can be found on their website.
Read on for my thoughts.
That said, I am very, very curious as to how Odex, a private entity, managed to obtain personal data from the ISPs based on purely circumstantial evidences. As far as I can see from the AVPAS member list, there is zero indication that it is anything but a private organization. It is related to neither the police nor the relevant government agencies. Therefore, it is the anime equivalent of the RIAA.
However, RIAA, as mighty and powerful as it appears to be, is not able to obtain any personal information from American ISPs directly. It has to do it through the court. That means that it has to first start the legal procedures before the court issues a subpoena that forces the ISP to reveal the identity of the defender and summons the person to court. The defenders in these lawsuits are given the generic name “John Doe” because their names are undisclosed by their ISPs until after the court subpoena. In such cases, the first letter received by the poor sob should be from his own ISP informing him of the existence of such a subpoena for his identity.
The above letter is addressed to the person himself and was sent directly by Odex. This means that Odex, without first going through any legal proceedings, is able to obtain personal information directly from the ISPs using only the IP address. That is insane if you consider the amount of invasive power that has been put into the hands of private company and the potential for abuse by individuals with their personal agendas.
You know, there’s a certain someone whom I really hate on a certain forum. I will fake produce a record of his IP address illegally torrenting a picture that I once drew during a particularly boring physics lecture. I shall then e-mail this “proof” to Singnet and ask for this person’s home address. And if that doesn’t work, I’ll go spend a few bucks to register a company to make the request seem more legitimate…
Of course Odex is a legitimate company that is trying to protect its rights under the current intellectual property rights law (flawed as it may be). But my point is that if a private entity can obtain such information without the prior knowledge of the people involved and without the authority of the court, then what exactly in our legal system is protecting our privacy from abuse by some unscrupulous characters? And if such protection of personal privacy does indeed exist, what exactly allows Odex to bypass it?
Then again, I’m not well-versed with the local legal system. Maybe our privacy laws are really that screwed up. Oh well.
Read this excellent explanation of the “RIAA vs. John Doe” lawsuits, particularly the sections on “How the RIAA identifies the people they sue” and “The Lawsuit Begins”, and compare it to what Odex is apparently authorized to do. Doesn’t RIAA look like the better alternative?
So what are your remaining options for your weekly anime fix?
- Direct download sites
- Obscure Chinese Bittorrent trackers
- XDCC bots on IRC
- Download raws off Winny/Share
- Move to Japan
- Find a job at Odex
Alternatively, find a safer hobby like playing pirated computer games or serial jaywalking.
@ Pyrite: well I guess all we can really do with accordance specifically to your points and most points raised in the posts is really as Cat said before, watch and see. Of course that raises the point of us being apathetic people. *shrugs*
First of all, get the screenshots of the fansubs from somewhere, best not from ur own library, then do a side by side comparision. If there are numerous match, either those guys from odex are pirates or one of the subbers is actually working for them.
BTW, dun worry about getting my name wrong :P
I checked the ST site….. they not only want my name, they want my address and contact number too.
sorry for all the multiple post…. but youtube is not a very good option… Some Numbskull flagged the lastest bleach episode and it got deleted. Also dling from other sources are not as safe too, since Odex or AVPAS or IPOS will just backtrack and check ur log and try to figure things out.
I really feel sorry for some guys I know. :(
I have to say, regarding the article on straits times, much of it was flawed, inaccurate and biased. Its as if almost everything written was only on the companies’ view, when in fact, the consumers and anime fans out there really know what is going on.
First, regarding the “prices of anime DVDs are the world’s lowest” part. I do remember that a box of VCD from Odex contains 13 episodes as i have bought it before and it costs 29.90 at its usual price, if there’s and offer, usually it would be 26.90 at 10% off. I cant remember how much the DVDs cost, but if im not wrong, I think its 59.90 per box? (correct me if im wrong though) In any case, the thing is, they prices compared in the straits times article were 9.90 per DVD box, which I have no idea about, and probably most of the pple also have no idea about, but I have heard that they were sort of like trying to clear their stock, which was ridiculous if you think about it, because if im right, then they would be using the clearing off prices as their so called “USUAL PRICE”.
1st off, not many people know about this promotion, they have not made public announcements or anything regarding this situation, the websites are not updated (I only knew that they had a website only 3 days ago, and I have heard it is rarely updated and has been in restructuring for 2 to 3 weeks already), and who knows how long have this promotion lasted already. Im guessing maybe for a few months.
2nd, the “prices of anime DVDs are the world’s lowest”, as I have mentioned, who knows how long this promotion have lasted and when it has started. So they should have used the USUAL PRICE to compare to the US prices of USD 15 to USD 20, and if I am right about their DVDs costing 59.90, then if converted into USD, I dun think it costs less den USD 20?
3rd, the “fans did not bite” part, Im not really sure what were the animes that were on promo, maybe its all of them, maybe its just certain animes. But if they were giving promos on old animes, animes like FMA which i remember it was one of the very few that were released in DVD, have ended 3 years ago, i do not think many people would actually then be interested to buy it? Next off, the DVDs versions were released several months after the VCD versions (for the same anime), so for one who have already bought the VCD version, which is already very costly, would probably not buy another DVD version? so just who exactly could they be targeting to buy the animes in the promo period? This also made me wonder did they keep the promo in low profile just so they could release an answer such as “fans did not bite”.
This is only what I think about their “prices of anime DVDs are the world’s lowest”.
Second, I have read the article and also the regards to Dr Toh’s reply. I have noted the parts on when the article stated that Singapore had the highest amount of downloaders for anime besides the United States. Then I also recall that in Dr Toh’s reply, his statement — “Dr. Toh revealed that due to the small size of the Singapore market, the licensors are not prepared to offer Odex or other local companies the same sort of licensing agreements which the US companies receive.”
If Odex had already known about the amount of downloaders in Singapore, what is it that they had not released this information to the Japanese companies? This is already solid proof of how BIG the market actually is, isn’t it?
Also, does the Japanese companies in which they are representing for know the quality of products and the current situation between Odex and the anime fans?
Third, regarding “Focus groups, he said, have been unable to differentiate fansubs from its DVDs when played back on a 42-inch TV set.”
1st, just who may be the “focus groups” that they are talking about? are they people who might give biased information? but never mind this, as I feel that its only a small part.
2nd, this is the important part, why izzit that they have used DVDs to compare when most of their releases are actually in VCDs? I feel that using DVDs to compare would be inappropriate since they do not have that many DVD releases, those which have been released are animes which already ended since who know when.
3rd, being DVD quality, shouldn’t the people who actually pay good money for it receive even BETTER quality then the pirated fansub versions?
4th, there are other qualities besides the show itself, such as the timing of translations, the typesetting, and the translations itself, and there may be more, which I am not very sure of. Shouldn’t all these be also put into consideration?
This is just some of the many things that I have to say. IMHO, I believe that people who pay good money for their products should receive whats worth, and not something which is inferior. I mean, how can the originals be inferior to the fansubs. I believe that people buy the originals so that they could be proud of it (I know because I USED to be one, not anymore), but becuz of the quality of products, both interior and exterior, are inferior, people who buy the originals are often teased at for being stupid.
I myself, have bought a series titled “inuyasha” when I first started on anime. It was a popular series, I like the story, but I stopped buying it from VCD volume 7 onwards. Mainly because of these factors, the quality of the products were poor (timing of subs, video quality, translations inaccuracy), they had high costs (SGD29.90), and their release timing was not consistent. I bought VCD volume 6 of Inuyasha from Odex, and I was already very pissed off at their quality and price since its not worth the money, and the episodes in box 6 made me STOP watching popular series “Inuyasha” as one of the discs contained 2 episodes which are totally the same. I had to then get it exchanged (customer dissatisfaction). The volumes 7,8,9 were released like 3-4 months later.
Today, I took my inuyasha VCDs out, loaded it in my com, to recall how bad they actually are, I browsed through this certain episode, then I realised the timing of the subs were 2 seconds late in certain areas. The voice came out first then followed by the subs, just goes to show their inferior quality.
I think that they should not blame the fansubs so much for the damage they have suffered becuz most part of it was due to their incompetence. Since they already have sort of monopolised the anime industry in Singapore, and yet unable to have made much money despite the amount of people watching anime in Singapore. Even if the anime fans are unreliable sources, I have found other reliable sources which comment about Odex, such as “animenewsnetwork” and “wikipedia” itself. The company itself does not engage in the anime community, and right now, they release information which is more or less untrue.
I personally think that we should have something like a survey, on the public who do not watch anime, the anime fans, and japanese literate people on the quality of their product. maybe like rip a small part of the fansub version and the Odex version of a certain anime on entirely the same medium, and have them critiq on the quality without revealing which is which, while recording the whole situation down on tape. This would more or less prove how inferior their goods really are. But we would need people who have power to actually do that, but personally I do not have, so this is really just one of my suggestions.
I’ve said alot that I want to say, cant remember what I have actually forgotten, but will add it on if I remember. Im commenting here because I want people to actually know what kind of flaws they have in their article and reveal more or less the accurate information so people who don’t know wadz happening actually can understand what really IS happening.
Wow that’s a shit load of comments. Oh, most of them were shit too.
Like Mr “I’m migrating but oops I’ve got NS”. I don’t think we’ll miss you.
Anyway, at the risk of sounding like a school teacher, why in the world is 17 year old Darkmirage making the vast majority of you guys here look like monkeys from the zoo?
Could we stop overreacting and spewing vitrolic bile while the ST just flicks the “delete” button on your precious emails?
Dunno whether this is posted but:
http://ckwiz.blogspot.com/2007/06/i-emailed-straits-times-journalist.html
This guy sounds damn serious
@holybell84 I don’t know man. Anyone who uses autoplay music on their blog is a moron.
The world is coming to an end, evident with the glamorous display of stupidity here.
If you want to download fansubs, move to another country: it isn’t as hard as it sounds….If you can’t speak japanese, Hong Kong is a pretty good place to move to. No crappy government monopolised ISPs either…
DarkMirage – “Wherever they obtain their license from, someone has to translate and dub for Animax. That someone is Odex. Even some R1 productions are outsourced to Odex.”
I believe Animax has its own trans and dubbing team, and I don’t think they’re based here. Of course, I could be wrong. :)
Ekard – “I believe there is a little too much of us people putting down Odex from our perspectives, simply because we’re thinking from our point of view and our losses and not considering about Odex’s concerns from their point of view.”
I agree, but Odex doesn’t see things that way. The fact that they can dismiss customer complaints – that the product is poor, which as an ex-customer I tend to agree – as mere perception problem says a lot about how high-handed they are. Some shopowners I spoke to also talks of how Odex takes offense at them selling DVDs/VCDs not belonging to Odex – especially parallel imports. And this is regardless of whether Odex has the license for the offending shows or not.
Odex needs to realise that to have a market, you need to help it grow. And the only way that can happen is to engage the fans rather than antagonise them. Unfortunately, you get the feeling that those running the anime scene here don’t understand the fans – or worse, aren’t fans themselves. Odex may prefer to target the casual anime viewer, but as those in this industry know, it’s the hardcore people – the otaku- who are willing to splash out on the latest limited edition DVD or collectible. Yes, these folks watch fansubs, but they are also the first to pay hundreds for original (well packaged and subbed) DVD box sets, or go on a shopping spree when in Akihabara.
And by the way, Singapore’s market is small and insignificant to the Japanese. But I doubt they’re impressed either when they have to deal with local businesses people in this line who think only of profiting from this growing content businesses, without showing any understanding of the medium or its fans. :)
Geez, read my own posts and realised all the typos and whatnot in them…. about time I hit the sack. :)
Theres no doubt that the fansubbers who modify and distribute anime are infringing on copyright. However it is harder to say so for the people who download them.
If the downloaders are infringing on copyright, the same can be said for every person who every used a VCR. Recording any show on TV would be a copyright infringement. Then all the VCR producing companies can be sued for making products whose primary purpose is illegal.
@wakki
I think just using a VCR does not means u are infringing on copyright; recording then distributing is.
forgotten to add tat like downloading anime, downloadin’ something that does not original belong to us or broadcast locally also counts.
Love and Peace. Right now, all of us could do with a good dose of love and peace. For oHaruhi’s sake, everyone. Just chill. Think logically, think reasonably.
I don’t know how many times this has been repeated. I’ve lost count because it gets lost in the midst of well-meaning, anxious, over-reacting posts.
We need to talk. Sure, ODEX sucks. Tell them in their face. Obviously it has been established that they are so incompetent that they don’t know a blog with good, critical comments on the net. What makes you think that a whole bunch of whining posts on the comments section will get their attention? They got the rights and laws on their side. All we have is a moral argument and it isn’t that moral in the first place.
Talk to them! I’m sure some of you have their contacts. I know I do. Go organize a forum (not the internet type) with them and force every single bloody grievances you have in their face! Rather than waiting for them to ‘engage the fans’, we should bring the fight to them.
Now, please stop behaving like /b/tards. This is a respected anime blog and lets behave like the Well Cultured Anonymous we should be.
@Komiker;
The problem is that ODEX doesn’t listen. They’ve been in the business for years now and the quality of their works are going downhill rather than uphill. What is this? We fans want to spend money on crap? No. We want the good stuff. If they have not listened to the fans for so long, what makes you think they will now – especially since they’re hard pressed to sue people to recoup losses. That’s just dirty.
If the fans are not significant enough to initiate change, then the public should be sufficient, yes? Once word gets out to the public about their lackluster performance over their monopoly over the industry, they’ll have no choice but to initiate change. People will soon look at ODEX products as pieces of thrash and just chuck them aside for the pirated ones. They’re cheaper. They’re better. They’re worth the MONEY. If word gets out to their respective partners – even better! They’ll know how much of a crap job their partner’s been doing and break off most, if not all, business ties with said company. That’ll destroy ODEX.
If ODEX doesn’t want to listen, we’ll make them.
Reply:
Most of you all are just talking without thinking for once, the other side of the issue. You don’t make them listen by whining here or boycotting them. They probably don’t make enough sales in the first place for a boycott to make an impact. No, that won’t make them listen. That’s just more incentives for them to issue more letters of surprise. It’s dirty but it’s legal. Moral arguments are worth nuts in Singapore.
And no. You do NOT want to destroy them. Not until another alternative comes along. Look at that membership list on AVPAS, look at all that potential we can tap into it. ODEX is in a damn good position to help the damn industry grow if they want to AND if the fanbase just stop and listen for a while. Destroy them and we lose all these contacts. Destroy them and we lose the only player in the industry with the capability of doing some real good stuff as a whole. Think beyond this one company at the whole industry. I want the industry to grow, be better, bring in some idols and what not. Do you?
We need to engage them properly and see them face to face. And we know that there are people and lurkers reading this that can do it. Gather the most important people with a say and go talk to them. I will throw in my support if you approach me.
Most of you need to back up your horses and stop bringing so self-righteous.
Please take note that fansubs, under the Berne Convention, was illegal, is illegal, and will continue to be an infingement unless the Convention is rectified. However, the majority of us here were able to download anime till now, largely because there was no enforcement. No legal enforcement does not means legality to download, it just meant it was safe to download.
In ‘NS context’, for those unable to digest, it was a privilege, not an entitlement.
That doesn’t mean I am not sore. I am pissed, irritated, frustrated and a whole list of other emotions that I will spare you the agony of having to read. However, I am mature enough to appreciate the fact that till now, a letter addressed to my innocent father, who has completely no idea of what an anime constitutes, has not been sent out.
Those of you casual anime fans, who keep using excuses like helping Singapore become an animation hub, sub-quality ODEX anime releases, please kindly stop your rant, and stop moulding these excuses for your own personal benefits. If you are sincere about supporting anime, there are ways for you to do so. I am sure if you ask nicely enough, darkmirage or any of the other anime bloggers would kindly inform you of ways to get LEGAL anime releases.
So for those who are still complaining about not getting their free, illegal, daily fix of anime, kindly shut up. It does not take a microscope, nor high intellect to see that even if there are avenues for you to support with tangible means, you still would not. So, if you still wanna get your daily fix, carry on with the downloads and risk the implication, or be like the many dozens out there including me, stop altogether, wait for coast to clear before popping out of our tiny holes in the ground. And frankly speaking, your rant looks like a tiny little crying kid who just got his pacifier taken away forcefully, and it hurts my eyes.
This is nuts. I’ve spent thousands of dollars on importing just a few series of R2 dvds from japan and some local company thinks I should get their’s instead? The fact that I rather buy from the original Japan companies paints a rather big picture.
To those who think that we should buy the original stuff just based on reading anime news and not fansubs, who are they kidding?? Such reviews are subjective at most and they expect to pay money based on such varied suggestions?? And they forget about the one major point: The Japanese don’t usually buy Dvds because of recommendation by mouth, they get to watch the animes on TV first before they know what they want to buy. How can we be compared to them? Odex fails in marketing anime to us and getting fansubs is one good (not necessary the right) way for us to finding out what to buy, that’s how I bought mine.
It’s not fair that we must pay to watch everything we want to watch. Animes are just tv programmes shown on tv for the masses in Japan. We don’t even have any tv channel here to show all of them (and don’t talk to me about Kids Central). If Odex catches pple based on the programmes they air here and the “dvds” they sell here, I have nothing to say, but they are basing on an unfair (and very grammatically incorrect) list by some AVPAS???
I have to admit that downloading stuff is illegal but even if we are caught, shouldn’t we be answering to the original anime makers themselves? I don’t know anything about law, but shouldn’t copyright infringement be a larger concern? Most offenders probably download for themselves and there’s no proof that they are distributing it (except for p2p). Odex is not the one who made the animes, we are not ripping their “dvds”, how can we be forced to compensate them at all? If they are basing on licenses, they have to prove it and that they are selling the animes on the list. They also have to prove that the Japanese are pushing them for such action.
The integrity of internet usage is a very grey area, even in countries like America. Anime is but one of the many many dubious usages of internet. If Odex blows this up anymore, we may end up having to BAN INTERNET. (wat? catch all the anime watchers! War Kao, let us all SABO the music and movie and software downloaders in singapore and see wat happens!)
Quoting ‘I Am Not Fooled’ :
“Those of you casual anime fans, who keep using excuses like helping Singapore become an animation hub, sub-quality ODEX anime releases, please kindly stop your rant, and stop moulding these excuses for your own personal benefits.”
I wonder very much if sub-quality ODEX anime releases can be constituted as an excuse. Have you actually bought or viewed any of their releases ? Simply drop by any shop offering their discs (ex. Comics Connection) and browse through their titles. Even the synopsis for most of them contain spelling and grammatical errors, not to mention the subtitles and certain translation mistakes for the ODEX series which I’ve viewed. Sometimes, it’s almost as if they believe that no one else besides them have any knowledge of the Japanese language and thus, translations do not have to be accurate.
Certainly, this does not justify illegal downloads. However, rather than an excuse, it is a point very much worth taking into consideration should ODEX ever plan to be something more than a purely business venture focused on releasing sub-quality products.
@Yoshi: Yes I do see the common problem that everyone notices. However we as consumers must understand that we do need to let Odex have a chance to redeem themselves. As you pointed out, they haven’t been thinking from our point of view. But we ought to give them a chance to do so, especially at this turning point. If we don’t give them the turning point now, things can only get more ugly. As we can see here, most of us are just being hostile or dissatisfied with them without giving them the benefit of doubt for the time being.
@I am not fooled: I thank you kindly for providing all these information to us, probably (hopefully?) will stop people from ranting too much. But just that you could have put it across slightly more polite. Yes, I do feel the same way as you regarding certain issues.
Oh and just for the sake of someone, forgot who (sorry), further up in the discussion, I found that it is totally ok to download something of which you already possess a copy of so technically if you have bought english fansubbed anime series, you can download these. Technically of course.
@Kouji: As I said earlier, we need to actually give them a chance. What happened in the past may not happen now. The rules are changing. You might as well be saying that in the past there were racial riots in Singapore and so we ought not to have different races in Singapore as it will lead to racial riots all over again. And shooting them down in this discussion is of no use as they seemingly don’t use the net. I mean look at their webpage.
In summary: yes, I agree with everyone that changes have to be made but to the community at large, let us give them the time necessary to sort out the paperwork and all that. What is probably (hopefully the case) happening now is that they are overwhelmed by the suggestions and flames. What they did in the past doesn’t matter anymore.If we do want a situation where NEITHER of us loses out, we have to give them, and ourselves, time for changes to be made so that there is a smooth transition instead of some ugly scene leading to the “death of the anime scene in Singapore”.
@I am not fooled
“In ‘NS context’, for those unable to digest, it was a privilege, not an entitlement.”
Its true but don’t you think our privilege are getting lesser?
“That doesn’t mean I am not sore. I am pissed, irritated, frustrated and a whole list of other emotions that I will spare you the agony of having to read. However, I am mature enough to appreciate the fact that till now, a letter addressed to my innocent father, who has completely no idea of what an anime constitutes, has not been sent out.”
Same sentimental!
“or be like the many dozens out there including me, stop altogether, wait for coast to clear before popping out of our tiny holes in the ground. And frankly speaking, your rant looks like a tiny little crying kid who just got his pacifier taken away forcefully, and it hurts my eyes.”
Taking cover liao!
I think many of us are still hot in the head that we have our privileges strip away. Like @Komiker had said it is better to have a win-win situation we anime fans aren’t unreasonable lots that just download animes for their benefits but one things i know for sure before odex emerge into the market animes was free for everyone to watch & enjoy much of this hasn’t been change until now. Odex needs to know that if they want to clinch the sg market they need to put in alots of effort & i really mean ALOTs of EFFORT in their products and not just going around sending letters to every anime downloaders. If odex package its contents in dvd(not 1 eps or 5 eps per dvd & enviromental friendly use less plastic) and retain the jap dub along with accurate & informative english sub with nice typesetting(like fansub) i wont mind forking out moneys to buy for collections like the other OVA(having a hard time finding eng sub) i brought from video shops. Enforcing laws to stop ppls from downloading isn’t the best solution to solve this problems as this workaround will only deepen the scar between odex & sg anime fans together along with fellow international anime fans. If those jap studio deem sg has a small anime fan base & not giving the privilege of special contents to sg(odex) then odex should have concentrate on improving the quality of the contents thus improving the grow of sales & fans in sg so that they can have something to use to fight for the rights of special contents from the jap anime studio. Odex also needs to diligently update its websites to provide more info on current release & future release as well as having a forum in its websites for feedback & discussion so they can know which title are popular & are sought after in local anime community. Sorry for the previous post was abit annoyed & irritated. I will still buy my fav anime from odex if the above conditions are met.
… Owned?
@xXMikotoNakadaiXx “… Owned?” Not exactly. They aren’t a very active company but a passive one thats why things end up in this way.
God, I’m considering locking the comments for this post.
This is getting kind of old. D:
I’m pretty sure the righteous ones who have been saying that we rant like kids after anime is taken away from us is mistaking us with the “other kind of anime fans” in singapore.
I just made myself broke preordering figures in treasureland a few days ago. and i intend to spend more on them in the future. i see no reason as to why i would feel that odex sucks because they took away something free from me. The only fact that i am pissed is because of how i feel odex seems to be treating us consumers like pests just because they have monopolise the anime industry, thus their “take it or leave it” attitude. And now that we chose to “leave it” they start extorting money from us saying we refuse to support them.
But then again, pop by local forums on this issue, we will see our more singlish based anime family who said stuff like: “wa lau, knn, i wanna watch bleach and naruto lor, gahmen always like tt one. I think i wont care la, wth, ban everything, like tat where got pirated?!” If this is the kind of comments that pisses you off, then please screw them.
I mean, hell. before you say anything about going to their faces and speak up, when haitaka propose to talk to the pres of avpas, how many of the ones flaming us now actually said something? Well i did, haitaka requested a list of anime that was released in odex and those that werent to be marked from the list. And also gave him some stuff on my idea of buying the copyright directly in a sense of buying the anime vcd WITHOUT the vcd, just the rights, so we get to dl what we want.
I’ll admit that i cannot financially support my hobby if i have to online shop for new dvds everytime unlike you rich bloggers. so i would rather Odex pick up and improve so i can rely on them. While wishing that odex might close up is in everyone hearts, i WISH that a new competitor will emerge, it would serve as a wake up call for them that they arent in total control anymore.
@ I am not fooled
True, there are ways of supporting the Japanese Companies with legal anime release. BUT did u actually consider that the no. of fans who truely love to use these means but are unable due to for example, lack of funds?
Sounds like a golden entrepreneur opportunity to start a company with high quality there.
Why, DM? You’ve scored yet another drama! Drama Queen strikes back.
1) Look carefully, the gist of my thread was specially targetted at those childish casual fans who have never bought any anime products but are self righteous about not having their free anime.
2) I am a more of a casual anime fan, like those I pointed out in point (1). What I am trying to say is, be thankful you have not been served with those ‘cease and desist’ letters, and not ranting.
If you are that desperate, take the risk and carry on downloading. Otherwise just lie low, and wait for either ODEX to burst, or just get a new hobby. And thank your lucky stars that you haven’t been served that letter.
2) I am not rich, and was and is not a elite currently. But I have bought several anime series with my own allowances, and a very limited quantity of anime merchandise.
4) ODEX sucks – that much we agreed on…
@hitoshura;
Do you have an MSN Messenger account? I wish to add you. You mind forwarding your email address to sleepingkouji@gmail.com?
No, that’s just my auxiliary account.
Well, let’s take the chance before DM locks up. :D
While I am in NO WAY placing any blame on those who feel they cannot afford merchandise at all, and have it in their minds to do so when they are older with income to support their hobby, I just think that it is a choice.
I can’t say I’ve been very supportive of the DVDs, but I’ve saved for a couple of figurines. I mean I was just fascinated by them (hey it was the first time Ichigo’s bankai form came out), and it was not like “Oh look. Bleach figurine. I shall buy it to support the people who have worked so hard! Otsukaresama-deshita! GAMBATTE!”
Still, however small, let’s just make it a point to be less calculating about spending on items related to our hobby, especially those involving production. Not just anime – other TV shows, music, games, applications, etc.
Because what so many people who commented here said is true, however harshly or nicely they put it:
We’re angry, we’re pissed, we’re frustrated, but we gotta accept that barking screaming and whining just doesn’t work. Not in Singapore. If we’re all that serious about it let’s chill and take proper action. And a shoutout to those who have sent or will send letters to ST. Whether that will work or not is another issue la. If it doesn’t, hey guys! People don’t label us as “the Singaporean anime community” for nothing. We can always come together somehow and work something else out. That’s what the Net is for.
Incidentally, if anyone has ANY information at all about the licensing process, please enlighten me at wongrenhao@gmail.com. Doesn’t matter whether you think/know it will work or not.
lock it!! this thread has become a breeding ground of future hikikomoris who keep pressing f5 in front of their computers just to see who has made new comments..
http://singapore.gnu.googlepages.com/press
“Yes!” or “Wtf?”
I am not fooled – “Those of you casual anime fans, who keep using excuses like helping Singapore become an animation hub, sub-quality ODEX anime releases, please kindly stop your rant, and stop moulding these excuses for your own personal benefits.”
Ah shucks, I guess I’m still a casual fan despite writing about the industry – and growing along with it – for almost two decades. :)
Everyone knows fansubs are not legal, but there’s a line between distributing anime for profit and doing it for free. The argument has been going on since the Net started, long before P2P and blogosphere came along, when a 20Mb clip was considered humongous to download. Anime companies weren’t happy with fans who used images from their shows to decorate their websites, even though these fans are only doing it to promote the shows they love. GAINAX put up a list of images users were authorised to use; no one gave a damn because it was silly to have 2000 fansites taht looked exactly the same. AIC was more flexible, allowing fans to use their images – even self-scanned ones – as long as they put their shows in a good light – fans welcomed that.
The same occurred with Lucasfilm, if I recall correctly. They went after fansites putting their new Star Wars trailer up for download, so these sites agreed to pull them off. Then, Lucasfilm’s server was overloaded by the number of requests, until it crashed and Lucasfilm eventually allowed the fansites to host the clips.
These days, most companies don’t really bother because they were fighting a lost cause. So even see this as an opportunity to promote their products in an untested market. Japanese anime and game companies had been wary of venturing into US due to previous setbacks. Imagine you sell the rights of your company’s bestselling titles to US distributors, only to see them flop badly it isn’t just a lost of investment, but also of face. Legal or not, fansubs were the best thing that came along because it opened US viewers to a wide genre of anime titles that weren’t just “mecha and babes”. And as with pop culture, passionate fans will spread the word for you.
Businesses are excited over the marketing possiblities of technologies like Google, but to be frank, that’s been going on in the anime scene for years, and is one reason why the US has transformed from a laughing stock in the anime world to one of huge market potential. Anime companies won’t like to acknowledge it (for very obvious reasons), but fansites and fansubs are doing the marketing for them. Besides, entire fansubbed series are taken off once it’s licensed. It’s when some a*shole decides to sell these fansubs for profit that’s bad – that’s when the law should really step in.
Some of those in the industry do see that point and are always willing to come to a compromise with anime fans. Of course, there are those still stuck in a time-stasis (esp those in the music industry), but you can’t win them all.
Oh, and by the way, it’s half-true that anime fans, even casual ones, won’t buy the series once they have the fansubs. They still do, especially if they like it enough. Some even buy limited editions (which cost almost twice as much) and a mountain’s worth of merchandise.
ODEX could and should’ve been a major force in the anime business in this region. And any avid anime fan would want them to succeed, because that means more, newer titles at affordable prices. But they have only managed time and again to release below-par products and diss anime fans – their own customers. If anime fans have an obligation not to download anything deemed “illegal”, ODEX too have an obligation to ensure that their product is up to standard – especially when they’re charging people for money. A good business is one taht learns to adapt and evolve.
They’ve been around for a while, and judging from their latest actions I doubt they’d change, however many chances you give them. It’s the way business is done in Singapore, I suppose. Least of all, a monopoly.
So to “I am not fooled” who says all this talk about “helping Singapore become an animation hub, sub-quality ODEX anime releases,” are excuses for personal benefits, well, all these gripes are true. Nor are there personal benefits when a) fans don’t make a cent out of fansubs; b) most of these series aren’t even distributed here (or outside Japan); c) fans who watch fansubs also spend on LEGAL stuff like DVDs, books, merchandise et cetera. How much have you spent on the anime industry thus far? :)
If you ask me, fansubs contributed much to the growth anime in Singapore; though I can’t say the same about the one and only anime distributor around.
Okay, guess that’s all I have to say about this issue. Sore ja.
try: WTF, leaning a little bit to ‘Yes!’
Well, they ARE addressing the issue on the invasion on citizen privacy. >_>
Check it out – It’s one of those advertisement links you get at the bottom of every MSN chat window
http://app.hipfriends.org.sg/hipfeatures/featurearticle.asp
Dude, what the hell? Btw the site belongs to IDA of Singapore (As depicted by my new best friend, PeerGuardian 2).
Eh summimasen mina. I just posted it without properly looking through it. Disregard that post (#289). I was probably high at that moment.
Gomen for the double post.
“Now this is interesting: The government wants to clamp down on animation downloads effective… this year. Happy New Year”
Source from one of the bloggers that met with Odex.
Someone contemplate this please.
So now its not just the issue between AVPAS and Odex anymore?
How has the gahmen been dragged into the picture?
And how accurate is that? Or it that just somekind of idle threat?
Well, from the legal and economic perspective, there is really no case for Singaporeans bittorrent people to complain.
Once a local Singapore company, in this case Odex, acquire the “exclusive distribution” rights to Jap anime in Singapore, the party is over, as far as bittorent downloaders are concerned.
Any one living in Singapore that uses bittorrent becomes guilty of distributing anime too. Since Odex is, by definition, the exclusive distributor, you are thus competing with it in an “unfair” manner.
That is why Japanese stuff becoming mainstream in Singapore is really a double edged sword. On one hand, you gain from having a local distributor since there is likely to be more marketing in Singapore, on the other hand, you can no longer bittorrent your heart out.
I think people should stop taking every word from every source so literally. If I am not wrong that line was quoted from Kwok’s blog and obviously he misunderstood what Odex said.
Basically cracking down on anime downloaders has NOTHING to do with the government. The IPOS started a public awareness campaign against copyright infringement of all form and Odex is simply riding the wind and making use of this opportunity to achieve its goals while claiming to be backed by IPOS. While I’m sure IPOS doesn’t mind what Odex is doing, I think it’s not hard to see that the government also has absolutely no reason to specifically go after anime downloaders.
Then again I may be wrong or lying. Jeez as I said stop taking everything you read on the Internet as its face value.
For those who are unaware, the Japanese authorities have actually begun their own crackdown on copyright infringement – including media content – and numerous websites have been implicated for hosting copyrighted material. Of course, there was also the much-talked about arrest of the creator of Winny a few years back.
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20070602-00000013-zdn_n-sci
(in Japanese)
Content business is big money, and it’s hardly surprising the Japanese are anxious about rampant piracy. Odex might be hopping on the bandwagon, but that doesn’t solve anything as long as they don’t improve and continue to appear high-handed in treating their customers. Government here needs to show they’re pro-business – I’ve no qualms with that, but businesses too must show some professionalism.
Kelvin Tan – “On one hand, you gain from having a local distributor since there is likely to be more marketing in Singapore”
That’s only when the local distributor listens to the demands of their customers – as what US companies like Animeigo, Right Stuf etc do. If they don’t, then it’s the opposite as they are literally a monopoly with their exclusive licenses they acquire.
Erm… just one curious question. Does Cos-play consider breach of copyrights as well?
Well it’s anime and we dun owe the designs of the character as it belong to the Jap anime co right.
Odex may be able to sue Singaporeans if they download videos together with AVPAS. But according to the letter they are authorized by their principals, licensors to take action for infringrment of copyright.
Pls correct me if my understsanding is wrong.
suggestion: print out this, plus the info that avpas = odex, and this is probably racketeering considering the method of disclosure of ISP information ( I believe your ISP will also notify you prior disclosing to them… so how they get it? back door deals?)..
print it all out, go to every vcd/dvd shop, mrt station, plaster it on the sign boards where permissible.. (eg: somerset mrt has a sign board, cold storage etc)…
A really noob question here, but I was curious about the technicalities. What’s the difference between DDLs and P2P? Arn’t they essentially the samething?(like i said, noob…) What about things like youtube and what DM mentioned (nico nico was it?)? How are they different?
Dude, is something wrong with the comments?
Anyway, like i said, p2p is a network of connections. You are connected to every other user in the network using your IP and various other computer information (i.e. MAC Address). So whenever you’re downloading or sending something, the peers would send the packets of data to each other using said IP address.
For ODEX, they could just pose as one of the users and get onto the network. By doing so, they’re connected to everyone else and are able to see the IP addresses of the users they’re connected to.
For DDL, the session is only between you and the server. Unless ODEX is somehow eavesdropping/tapping on/into your session with said server, there is no way for them to acquire such sensitive information. Even if they do, that’ll be an invasion of privacy and you have the right to sue them for that.
As for file streaming sites such as youTube, I don’t know whether is it illegal but it technically is. Since when you’re watching an episode on Tube, you’re actually downloading the video and storing it in your temporary internet files folder. Technically it’s called streaming, but you’re still downloading the information.
kouji, sry for my pooer english, ”ODEX is somehow eavesdropping/tapping on/into your session with said server”
the said server u point out here, is who??? the server that we DDL from?
(really a noob in english. sorry >.
@kouji (and anoner and pissed fan): For ddl, it is less likely for them to be able to actually sue you according to the law here. Unless they do manage to get a record of every single download with regards to the particular download, (like if you download the whole series), which is much more difficult. And then they would have to prove that it did sufficient damage to their sales, which means they need more than one person to do that, i.e. they have to get many people downloading the exact same set of things and then mass-sue them. This is due to the fact that you are indirectly distributing using P2P but you are not when you are downloading.
In essence, DDL, more difficult for them to sue as they would have to
1) collect information on how you use it
2) find a group of people downloading it
3) prove with sufficient evidence(?) that it affects their sales
4) mass-sue said group of people
These are extrapolated in accordance to the laws as mentioned by IPOS