Taken from RIUVA. So Odex has finally done it. Singapore’s anime community is doomed. Oh shit. So anyway some poor guy probably wet his pants after receiving this letter.
WTF zOMG H4X!
BTW the organization mentioned in the letter AVPAS (Anti-Piracy Association of Singapore) is similar to the RIAA/RIAS except that Odex appears to be the sole active member. The organization has obtained authorizations from various Japanese studios to represent their rights for all their copyrighted works, even those that are not licensed by Odex for distribution in Singapore. The full list of titles can be found on their website.
Read on for my thoughts.
That said, I am very, very curious as to how Odex, a private entity, managed to obtain personal data from the ISPs based on purely circumstantial evidences. As far as I can see from the AVPAS member list, there is zero indication that it is anything but a private organization. It is related to neither the police nor the relevant government agencies. Therefore, it is the anime equivalent of the RIAA.
However, RIAA, as mighty and powerful as it appears to be, is not able to obtain any personal information from American ISPs directly. It has to do it through the court. That means that it has to first start the legal procedures before the court issues a subpoena that forces the ISP to reveal the identity of the defender and summons the person to court. The defenders in these lawsuits are given the generic name “John Doe” because their names are undisclosed by their ISPs until after the court subpoena. In such cases, the first letter received by the poor sob should be from his own ISP informing him of the existence of such a subpoena for his identity.
The above letter is addressed to the person himself and was sent directly by Odex. This means that Odex, without first going through any legal proceedings, is able to obtain personal information directly from the ISPs using only the IP address. That is insane if you consider the amount of invasive power that has been put into the hands of private company and the potential for abuse by individuals with their personal agendas.
You know, there’s a certain someone whom I really hate on a certain forum. I will fake produce a record of his IP address illegally torrenting a picture that I once drew during a particularly boring physics lecture. I shall then e-mail this “proof” to Singnet and ask for this person’s home address. And if that doesn’t work, I’ll go spend a few bucks to register a company to make the request seem more legitimate…
Of course Odex is a legitimate company that is trying to protect its rights under the current intellectual property rights law (flawed as it may be). But my point is that if a private entity can obtain such information without the prior knowledge of the people involved and without the authority of the court, then what exactly in our legal system is protecting our privacy from abuse by some unscrupulous characters? And if such protection of personal privacy does indeed exist, what exactly allows Odex to bypass it?
Then again, I’m not well-versed with the local legal system. Maybe our privacy laws are really that screwed up. Oh well.
Read this excellent explanation of the “RIAA vs. John Doe” lawsuits, particularly the sections on “How the RIAA identifies the people they sue” and “The Lawsuit Begins”, and compare it to what Odex is apparently authorized to do. Doesn’t RIAA look like the better alternative?
So what are your remaining options for your weekly anime fix?
- Direct download sites
- Obscure Chinese Bittorrent trackers
- XDCC bots on IRC
- Download raws off Winny/Share
- Move to Japan
- Find a job at Odex
Alternatively, find a safer hobby like playing pirated computer games or serial jaywalking.
Now I am seriously thinking of migrating to the outback.
Anyway, how do they know whether those attempts which my BT client made to download (overnight via RSS) actually got downloaded? All of them only got to 85% and got stuck. UNWATCHABLE!!! So i canceled and deleted them the next morning i woke up :P
So yes, my client attempted to dl those animes, but they were unwatchable, didnt complete. So they are juz pieces of data, codes, 1s and 0s…. These chucks of data were subsequently removed from my HDD :P
So pls Sir, tell me, what crime did i commit again?
Having once own parts of a gun doesnt mean i owned a gun right?
If u tell me my crime is that i click on a link and attempted to download data off the net, even though i subsequently removed that data (be it a completed one or not), then something is seriously wrong here.
I have said it once and i will say again, its a country spiralling downwards. Thou i had alot of fights and arguments over this point with my parents who happened to be civil servants. But i juz dun see any future at all, the old flame i felt for her in the old times when i was young seems gone. Or maybe i juz happened to be those so-called quiters.
how many of us got the letter already??
The way I see it, for all anime fans in Singapore, the best way to retain their freedom to download fansubs would be to preemptively strike. The easiest way would be to complain with CASE or another recognised and established body which can take action against ODEX and friends for producing works that are sub.par: i.e. poor subs, quality, and the subsequent damage to the anime watching experience.
BTW, DM, nice reference to that film. Human sacrifices are those that have been giving letters from ODEX?
Wow, 302 (now 303) comments. Wow.
So active here, yet I’d bet that when Odex organises an open door meeting, the number of people attending will definitely be less than the number of comments on this particular post.
So there, continue whining, and have a nice life running away from problems forever.
Hey guys, we have a way to win this war. I just discovered that ODEX has been drawing up a conspiracy to have all of us eat our shit. I got this information from a highly reliable source: my friend’s brother’s friend. He works at the office opposite ODEX.
You know, Blue Max. Or so he says. But he’s reliable.
So now all we have to do is to not eat our shit, great idea! Then when ODEX fails to make us eat our shit, they’ll have to smuggle heroin to eat. I mean, heron. Oh and I also heard that there’s an underground base under ODEX that’s cultivating Marijuana. Now we can sue.
I don’t mean the office building. I mean the base they have in Iraq.
I feel that this is somewhat similar to the “smoking” issue. Most of us know that smoking is bad for you, “blah blah” and all that hype. Even the government warns us every now and then.
Yet, smoking is still considered part of our culture. And can anyone confidently say that they forsee the complete end of “smoking” literally? The same issue can be applied for music downloads. [ mp3 musics, who uses CD players nowadays? Or does anyone still remember the casettes?]
Perception is indeed the ultimate problem here. Remember in the past? Those fake doreamon and dragon ball 7 balls, toys and paraphernalia, that once existed long time back.
For this age group of anime fans, most of us have that “perception” deeply ingrained into us.
I remember someone mentioned a very good point earlier. To paraphrase ” You would have to kill of this entire generation of people and start brainwashing them over and over again. ”
For most of us, politics are like a way no no, and especially for me, I have to look over my shoulder every now and then, to make sure, I am not in sight of “Big Brother” watching.
It might seem like just excessive paranoia, but the letter above, will only serve to reinforce my beliefs.
They say that there is a price for freedom, but at what cost? At this rate, I feel that Singapore will be no different from “Neotopia” ==> Kiba anime, Not on AVPAs list.
For all that we might now, they would start actively killing anyone who speaks us against the absolute order which they have so proudly build on.
I will so far as challenge the notion, would we go down the similar path which led to the infamous crackdown in China?
I don’t know, I feel that Singapore is becoming more and more like a barrel of explosives, just tettering, with flames fluttering around. That is the price of stuffing so many people in such a small confined area.
@ShivKite: IMHO, you’re overreacting.
[Yet, smoking is still considered part of our culture.]
Just because something is part of our culture doesn’t necessarily make it *right*.
[And can anyone confidently say that they forsee the complete end of “smoking†literally?]
Do you honestly think AVPAS will be able to catch every single person who downloads anime illegally, and hence completely eradicate the fansub downloading problem? I seriously doubt this will happen. Their goal is probably just to warn downloaders.
[For all that we might now, they would start actively killing anyone who speaks us against the absolute order which they have so proudly build on.
I will so far as challenge the notion, would we go down the similar path which led to the infamous crackdown in China?]
To the best of my knowledge, AVPAS is NOT a government organization. I doubt resolving the issue of illegal fansub downloads is so important as for them to even think of killing people for it. Sheesh.
[I don’t know, I feel that Singapore is becoming more and more like a barrel of explosives, just tettering, with flames fluttering around. That is the price of stuffing so many people in such a small confined area.]
I fail to see how a high population density contributes anything to the situation we have here.
Calm down, people.
@exalt dragon: that (lodging a complaint with CASE) is the best idea I’ve heard all day ;)
I don’t personally own ODEX products – heard too much about their quality, or lack of it – but if anyone here is interested, check out this link: http://www.case.org.sg/medi1.htm
The process sounds relatively simple, and the only drawback I can see is the $10 administrative fee, but that’s a small price to pay.
@ psionix (and to everyone, PLEASE take note): I remember that there is a line in the Penal Code that states (roughly so, I don’t remember it word for word) that a person can be convicted or charged for their intent to commit a felony. And the felony in this case (I believe) would be to infringe upon the copyright of whatever you are downloading. There is to date, no case law, as far as I do know, of anyone being charged in court (of the intent) to infringe upon the copyright of an anime series, nor is there case law regarding the intent to distribute via P2P software. So we can’t really say no crime was committed IF the lawyers of Odex were to charge us THAT way. And as mentioned time and again, there is no actual precedent for such cases so we can’t really say what will happen. In such a case psionix, yes, the crime you have committed is just simply attempting to download something. Of course, intent to commit a felony is normally less serious than completing it in actual. However, in extreme cases, yes, it can be as serious as completing the download. That is as far as I remember of the short courses I took regarding certain chapters of the Penal Code and they are in no way definitive statements with regards to the topic at hand, but I just thought I ought to make it as clear as I can.
@Ekard
I am not trying to argue with you here, just trying to toy with several idea, and see if there i any way out of it, so nothing personal. And pls, I would like to hear your points as well. Just treat it as a discussion.
So lets say my BT client has a Bad Regular expression and it automatically downloads those videos, I found it before its completed and deletes them. Is that an intention to commit felony? They have no evidence nor proof of the existence of the videos and the intent except for a list with my IP tagged onto it.
I mean, if i was busted with them actually proving that i had episodes of liscensed anime in my com, i would surrender. But this is not the case. They are suing u for clicking on the torrent file.
Trying to say that attempted murder is still a crime. But this is not!!!
I bought a knife cuz i wanted to kill someone. But after that a car knocked me down and the knife was broken. I was hospitalised. (or even better, i heard god telling me not to do it and he convinced me) Is the police gonna arrest me for attempted murder?
Hmmm, on another note, what if those videos arent bleach but teletubbies which someone actually jokingly uploaded with the name of bleach?
They might say thats not the case cuz they actually scrape the trackers, ie, they were one of the seeds/peers in that torrent, and thru that they got my IP. So that means they are actually seeding the file themselves, cuz u nid to upload in order to download in BT (not seed the 100% file, juz uploading pieces of data). If a fruit seller is giving out his fruits, doesnt that legally make those fruits free for all? Or maybe they got the IP list thru someone outside the company >
damn my message was cut. cant remember much of wat i had said after that.
Oh Cont…
Maybe iam juz toking cock here. too stress with the coming EOS exams :P
On another hand what if those torrents were queued. No downloading commence yet, at 0%, thou i am connected to seeds and peers. So that means they are suing me for downloading torrent files (unintentionally) which have no copyright materials in them wat so eva!
End of the day, the videos were never downloaded, I have never seen them nor intended to, neither were they in my HDD, and if the law still allow those monsters to have a case against me, isnt that seriously wrong?
@ psionix: Sorry if I sounded hostile or something like that. I was just raising the point of how they could actually charge us with stuff like that. I have a neutral stand here.
Hmmz, yes, I do agree with several of your points. That is why there is this discussion everywhere on how possible would the case be against us(?) if it WAS brought to court. As I mentioned before, there is no precedent so we can’t really tell what can happen.
And yes, according to the scenario(s) as envisioned by you, it would be extremely silly, not to mention a waste of taxpayers’ money, to actually charge the people in your scenario. As I am not a legal expert, I can only state as much of the obvious that I am aware about. Sorry, and do correct me, if I am wrong.
Intent to commit a felony is not a charge that is very commonly used, as the prosecution will have to prove a certain number of things, among which is how likely is the felony actually going to be carried out and how much to completion (in the case of long-term plans) is the felony.
As you will have noted, they have not actually sued you when they issue the letter. Granted, they DO have legal backing with regards to the abovementioned laws by me and other people of the discussion. However, to present a case definitely needs much more than just clicking a torrent file, as raised by you. To do that, they would have to search your computer and other such sources of information. It is possible if they manage to obtain a court order to search your computer. One of the reasons they haven’t really sued anyone yet is due to all these red tape. And yes, it IS possible to obtain a court order to search your computer.
One thing to actually note, Odex’s letters may give rise to many of the below scenarios:
1) If you meet them, and you are actually guilty.
In this case, you took the prudent way out, which is to pay the “3.5k compensation-fee”.
2) If you meet them, and you are not guilty.
In this case, if they believe you (or believe the case not worth pursuing to court), you would reach an understanding with no “fee” to either persons.
3) If you meet them, and you are actually guilty.
If they do take the case to court and win it, well the payout to them would be much much higher than the 3.5k. Lawyers’ fees, etc. {Well I’m obviously not trying to scare you guys, I too would suffer…}
4) If you meet them, and you are not guilty.
They took the case to court. If you won the case, then {SCORE ONE FOR US BT-ers!!!} there would be a case law regarding this. Odex would be less likely to sue in future. If you lost the case, Odex could become trigger happy anytime.
And yes psionix, in accordance to your many scenarios, that’s what they would have to prove. Unless you do have something wrong with your BT, then the fact that you attempted to download “a significant amount”* of anime is enough to convict you of an intent.
* As with the many laws in place, this is up to the Judge to understand it. If it is say, one movie and to which there is no prequel/sequel, the Judge could ALSO understand it as a significant amount. As I have said before, there is no precedent.
opps, sorry for the long post.
Thank you Ekard. You were wonderful, and no, u didnt sound hostile, its me who wanted to place an argument therefore i begged your pardon :)
I have been looking for someone serious enough to give a counter-opinion to my views (which is sadly, hard to find on the net these days), and you had done it. Thanks again, it was a meaningful discussion.
And you had summed it up very nicely of the whole situation.
As a SGOtaku, i feel we shouldnt be trifled with and let this sort of things to slide by. If i was them i wouldnt even bother to pay the 3.5k. They can search my com all they wan, they wont find a thing. There is no reason we should let them have this victory (no matter how small it seems) as it will only fuel them with further motivation to take more ridiculous actions.
I am not saying downloading those videos is our right or that its legal. My point is if all they have is evidence of me clicking on a torrent tagged with my IP and try to get money out of me using that piece of shyt-covered toilet paper, then i would juz shaft it down their throat.
Will i think i will rest my case then.
Related replies 301, 309-312
Typo: Well i think i will rest my case then.
PS: i observed a trend whereby all those ppl who got into trouble with dling seems to be singnet users.
I have always supported cable. but maybe theres a connection to this? as someone earlier mentioned about the terms and condition of singnet.
And trust me, i read every of the 300 post before me :P
Thats all from me. SGOs, dun fret and keep the community alife!
Hmmm, I wonder if anyone will actually write and published on ST forum. but i pretty much will think new paper will actually publish such stuff. if there is a lot of things to substantiate what you are giving them. There is no reason to actually strike a fire, (how amazing a gold tap can strike off just a big story)
But then again, it takes a damn pissed off person to look for the info and the details to give them a good story.
P.S. Fu *dex
@ konaha: lol prob is, gold tap informant iznt committing a crime. doubt any of us can sae she/he has nv dl-ed b4. Nt exactly, guiltless, as sum wld sae ahaha
Essentially, downloading copyrighted content, which in this case would anime, is just illegal.
While fansubs do serve the purpose of “advertising” and “testing the waters” , at the end of the day they are well, illegal.
If Odex wants to sue, then they are well within their rights to do so.
I mean, at the end of the day, they paid good money for their licenses didn’t they?
I just wander if PeerGuardian is good enough to block Odex.
Guys, I would like to ask you all an interesting question. How many of you have got ‘Remote Assistance’ enabled on ur cpus? (Under the control panel.
@Anoymous
They might be within their legal right, but so are we entitled to our already limited rights of privacy. This is no difference from survelliance watching you 24/7, or tapping your phone lines.
It is one thing to do it against terrorist, or mafia like personnel who plots the take the country down, but to do it against the lesser common person who just wishes to be left alone and for his own private consumption is another matter.
Who knows to what extent they will go to catch people next time, even if it was for a minor dismeanour?
Lets see how you like it, if you have some “Eye” watching you do every single little thing on the internet. Every little keystroke you press, every single link you type… … .
This country’s citizens are already suppressed in many ways as it is. To twist their arms further by stepping on whatever paltry privacy rights they still possess, is one thing over the edge.
I am considering asking a friend to check who have been accessing my cpus remotedly, regardless.
@ Anonymous 318: Sorry if I missed out any updates within the law sections, but I do recall there is a loophole that downloaders like us exploit. I believe someone made mention of it somewhere above. Think I did mention it in passing too, sorry if i missed it out
Original email:
http://ckwiz.blogspot.com/2007/06/i-emailed-straits-times-journalist.html
hello Kian Wee.
lots of stuff. Wanted to highlight a few points:
“If ODEX becomes bankrupt, you will share some responsibility for your actions.”
“foreigners are getting a bad impression of Singapore from this crackdown.”
you seem to believe I have an interest in how well/badly Odex is doing, or an agenda to make Singapore look good.
The truth is: not really.
N btw we shud keep hitting him w emails, I think we got him interested. Yay.
oh and if u have the balls pls use your name. Then he’ll take you more seriously.
http://www.straitstimes.com/ST%2BForum/Online%2BStory/STIStory_126225.html
http://www.straitstimes.com/ST%2BForum/Online%2BStory/STIStory_126252.html
http://www.straitstimes.com/ST%2BForum/Online%2BStory/STIStory_126253.html
This and this and this?
What happened if you think a lot more people send similar letters?
@dKiWi
ya, me using my real name when I will be sending my mail, no point sending in as holybell84.
Something out of topic: u CPL liao? Think u can smell ur ORD date lo :D
Long way to go… MINDEF MPs get promoted to CPL very quickly. And I’m also aiming for Coporal First Class first.
btw, for those interested in subsequent interactions with this guy, I’m posting exclusively in the CY forum. Chuang Yi is Singapore’s local manga licensor btw.
http://www.chuangyi.com.sg/board/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1181135359
I find it ironic that even though Chuang Yi is giving us extremely good quality manga, not that many fans are talking in their forums.
If more people make noise about titles they want, CY will take them more seriously. I’m sure alot of us want sola, so uh lets push for sola!!!:
http://www.chuangyi.com.sg/board/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1179734200/0#0
ChuangYi >>> ODEX
What loophole?
Oh yes, I do buy a lot of manga from Chuang Yi, but nothing from Odex.
Chuang Yi >>> Odex
i said something abt ChuangYi but DM is still moderating my comment lolz.
Amen to that, ChuangYi’s mangas have resonable translation. I tend to get their books even if their book quality is a little off ( Turns yellow pretty fast”)
But, I find that they at least bother to do promotions. What manga they don’t bring in, i just have to relay on Taiwan’s imports.
http://www.straitstimes.com/ST%2BForum/Online%2BStory/STIStory_126252.html
This is darkmirage’s letter to the ST forum, and I am glad they published it on their website. I don’t know how to use quote tags XD
Japanese anime: A fan speaks up
I REFER to the article, ‘Getting anime illegally online? Beware’ (ST, June 1).
I maintain a blog on Japanese anime and pop culture that is read by many Singaporean and overseas anime fans.
I believe that our fan community is being severely misrepresented by the article in question and I ask for a chance to let us, the anime fans, give our side of the story which the article unfortunately neglected.
It is no understatement to say that fansubs are the foundations of the entire anime community in Singapore.
Fansubs and word-of-mouth created the popularity that anime enjoys today.
Some people see it as nothing but piracy, but I disagree.
There are hundreds of anime series being aired in Japan and only a very minute fraction of it become commercially successful enough to garner interest from foreign companies.
The rest of them never stood a chance of making it abroad.
Fansubs changed that. Some of the most popular shows today were made famous by digital fansubs, or online piracy as some would call it.
They went on to become international hits. It is no coincidence that the popularity of anime increased exponentially all over the world in recent years just as file-sharing and broadband technology matured.
I have personally spent thousands on anime DVDs and soundtracks. I know that I, along with all my friends in the community, would not have spent a single cent on anime if we had not come to know of it through illegal fansubs.
I hope the irony is not unnoticed. And yet even those of us who are willing to spend nearly $100 to import a R2 DVD from Japan refuse to pay $9.90 for a locally-made R3 DVD of the same anime title. I wonder if it is truly just a simple matter of digital piracy at work here?
One more episode downloaded does not equate to one less DVD sold. It is just not that simple.
Jiang Chang Xing
Wow. That’s some powerful letter. GJ DM.
I’ve read all 3 letters sent in, and I’m glad they’ve been published on the ST website, too. Although I do wonder if ODEX will ever read them.
I must admit however, that my first response to DM’s letter was shock :P
A 17 year old is able to spend thousands of dollars on anime?? I’m 18, currently hold a full-time job, and I still have to think twice about spending more than $30 on anything. Lol.
On another note, has anyone tried sending emails to ODEX? Their website is still down, but they’ve provided an email address: info@odex.com.sg
I’m sure he’s not the only one. If you like something a lot, money is not an issue… unless u really don’t have enough.
I also spent thousands of dollars on importing R2 dvds, mangas, Japanese PC games etc. But I also have a full time job. At least I don’t smoke and I stopped chionging a long time ago.
bardsmanship> Don’t believe everything you read on the internet. For me its basically no pic no talk.
“On another note, has anyone tried sending emails to ODEX? Their website is still down, but they’ve provided an email address: info@odex.com.sg”
I sent a downright flaming one to them after I read the news but in retrospect it was much too emotional to get my message across. I also made some false accusations XD.
http://forums.tertiaryessayist.com/index.php?topic=195.0
Strange, I was sure I posted a comment about the Odex WIKI…maybe darkmirage moderated it? Well yeah I said that the Odex Wiki hotlinked to the letter.pdf that darkmirage put up. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odex
Hotlinking huh…
You got filtered by Akismet. I know about the Wiki article and I have nothing to do with it. I don’t really care about hotlinking.
Just 1 word for ODEX. PeerGuardian2. Enough said, try obtaining someone’s IP address in BT when you can’t even connect to him.
@Farinelli : Although DM’s letter is the best factually (a really good job, short and to the point), I find the opinionated one from the non-anime fan the best :D
Its over here:
http://www.straitstimes.com/ST%2BForum/Online%2BStory/STIStory_126253.html
Even an outsider thinks that ODEX is going down the drain without even sampling their atrocity first hand.
Well ODEX,
GOOD JOB! (think Konata with Rena’s USODA face)
And how would that help?
You just can’t stop people from viewing your IP unless you seal yourself off, and then BT becomes pretty useless.
Eh why do you even need to connect to that person? You can just get the whole list of connected peers off the tracker itself…
By the way, was anyone able to watch Arts Central tonight ? It was suppose to air the 3rd episode of Jigoku Shoujo. But of all other local broadcast channels, it didn’t show up. Starhub showed as it being closed…
This could only mean something pretty shitty…
If anyone’s still interested in this, it’s SingNet’s Terms & Conditions that we should be looking at. Their Acceptable Use Policy states the following:-
5. SingNet co-operates fully with Singapore law and legal processes. SingNet respects Customer privacy rights and will not intentionally disclose Customer’s online communications or activities except to comply with court orders, subpoenas, statutes, regulations, or official governmental requests; in order to protect SingNet or its Customers from harm; or where necessary for the operation of the system. SingNet may occasionally and randomly monitor online communications only for mechanical or quality control checks.
Not much comfort in there.
There isn’t any privacy law in Singapore if I recall correctly. The best we have is a Model Data Protection Code for the Private Sector which is currently in consultation stage. It won’t have the force of law even if adopted, and will likely be voluntary.
@Ekard
3) If you meet them, and you are actually guilty.
If they do take the case to court and win it, well the payout to them would be much much higher than the 3.5k. Lawyers’ fees, etc. {Well I’m obviously not trying to scare you guys, I too would suffer…}
Not necessarily. In a civil suit, Odex must prove the quantum of its loss suffered – probably based on the number of infringing episodes the infringer has. Lawyers fees’ for starting a civil suit… say $2,000. Unless the average infringer has about $1000 to $1500 of infringing episodes, and assuming that most people settle with them, Odex may be profiting from this exercise. And lawyers’ letters definitely don’t cost $3000 each.
Also, isn’t copyright infringement covered by the Copyright Act and not the Penal Code? I *think*.
Scrap the part on arts central for being a outdated pos.
Does anyone on singnet feel a significant lag recently ?
If i recall, ODEX…
1) …did not file a court order to obtain your information
2) …did not file for subpoena. If by subpoena you mean the same thing as court orders to summon information.
3) …is not a government body
4) Downloading anime is against a statue?
5) Regulations with what? The usage of internet?
One day Singapore gov will ban bt, irc downloads. D:
@winsonkoh , won’t ever happen with bt, some online games are using it to distribute their clients…
what happened to that guy now? i wanna know.