Blasphemlicious
JoJo’s Bizzare Adventure, an anime series based on a manga by the same name, is currently under fire from the Middle East for having a villain in the show read the Holy Koran while plotting the death of the protagonist.
Rather stupid if you ask me.
[ Source: JapanProbe | Itai-News ]
The original scene in the manga did not show the contain of the book. Since it is unlikely that anyone working on the show can actually read Arabic, someone probably decided to copy and past the text from a randomly-selected online source without knowing that it was an extract from the Koran.
Though it’s not their fault, Shueisha, the publisher of the manga, has posted a public apology of their website in both English and Japanese, with the Japanese version being notably shorter. Personally I wouldn’t apologize for such triviality, especially if the mistake wasn’t even my own, but then again I don’t run a multimillion-dollar company.
Not Terrorists
I just find it absolutely hilarious (in a sad way) that the companies involved have received death threats for supposedly depicting Muslims as terrorists. Sort of like, “How dare you say that our religion is violent? I’ll blow your company up and kill your family!” Oh irony.
This was probably a simple mistake on the part of some anonymous underpaid animator, but even if it weren’t, it’s really no big deal. The fact of the matter is that some Muslims are indeed terrorists, therefore it makes perfect sense to have Muslim terrorists appear in an fictional Arabic setting. I mean, some white folks are serial killers, and we have no problems with casting Caucasian actors as horror movie antagonists. It doesn’t have to be a general statement about an entire community of people, and it often isn’t. I’m pretty sure at least a few anime villains have quoted or alluded to the Bible before.
If anything, the tendency to over-react in such situations does more to reinforce the violent stereotype of Islam than anything else. The same with most angry protests really. As much as I may (or may not) sympathize with their cause, watching people burn effigies (whether it be Bush, Osama or Dalai Lama) and scream their lungs out simply extinguishes any desire on my part to be associated with what they stand for.
Relativism
Frankly, I think in our blind pursue of political correctness, we often overlook just how frightening extremism and radicalism in religion can be. When someone incurs the wrath of radical Islam, we are quick to denounce him as “culturally insensitive” or “ethnocentric”, among other convenient labels, placing all the blame squarely on the often unwitting offender. It’s a reverse knee-jerk reaction.
Few people pause to consider the flip side of the coin, for it seems almost a given that once religions are criticized (unfairly or not), it becomes perfectly acceptable for the believers to do whatever they fancy in seeking “justice”. And if the offender-turn-victim happens to have his life taken from him in the process, he can look forward to many a posthumous “serves you right” lecturing from his supposedly more worldly peers. (Assuming afterlife does exist.)
I find this quite a sad state of affairs, but I guess that describes the entirety of the human condition since 200,000 years ago. (2.5 million if you consider the entire homo genus as humans. Or 6,000 if you swing that way.)
P.S. Marina is Jewish.
Oh, and Christians kill people too. Take a gander into the mind of a highly religious nut job. http://www.armyofgod.com/PHill_ShortShot.html
Lol, oh common the army of god fruits get the balls once like every year to go and burn the local abortion clinic and maybe whack the doctor and nurses, it is not like you can compare it to insane fanatics that go around schools killing little kids like in Beslan or hijacking planes and crashing it into building. Let us not forget about strapping bombes and blowing up in markets full of fellow Muslims.
I mean if I could not get laid and I had the brain the size of a river shrimp I might strap the bomb vest and see if I get my 70+ virgins in heaven but you know I got laid and my brai is not the sie of river shrimp
I agree that muslims are worse than christians right now. But that doesnt change that they all follow the same kind of religion (the same religion with minor variations to be specifik). Christianity has the same dangerous potential, its just a matter of time until it swings the other way again.
Actually, one could argue that it already has. The troops in Iraq were coerced to sign up partly with religion and patriotism.
I actually agree with Seraphim. For the record, I don’t advocate making death threats, but these people were upset, and people rarely think rationally when they’re upset. I don’t think this is about religion as much as it is about pride and fear of stereotyping.
Consider the current cultural context. Muslims are feared, and sometimes vilified due to the actions of an (I’m assuming) extremist minority. This sort of portrayal (i.e., insinuating Muslim influence in committing a murder) is just feeding the stereotype that Muslims are mostly violent Jihadists, suicide bombers, or murderers.
What if in the weeks after the VT massacre, there was a glut of fiction portraying Asians committing mass-murders? Would it be oversensitivity for Asians to be upset?
Sure political correctness is silly, but stereotypes are worse and much more insidious, even if there’s some truth to them. People form preconceived notions about other groups they know little about, which can be annoying or upsetting, whether the stereotype is positive or negative.
Black people and other racial and ethnic minorities had been portrayed pretty negatively in American media for years. I don’t know if they kept quiet about it and accepted it, but I’m going to guess that they didn’t. And if they spoke up, good for them.
@Seraphim:
You do realize that there are terrorists/radical Muslims who “quote” the Koran as justification for their actions?
Slightly off topic, but big Japanese companies seem to be very concerned over incurring the wrath of small minorities. I don’t think any sensitive-Arabic-reading-Muslim-anime/manga-otakus make up a significant proportion of their sales. Is that their work ethic?
Its PR. Its not the minorities they care about.
The company acted to prevent further escalation, because if Japanese embassies start getting rocks thrown at them, the Japanese government and public would surely have held those involved in the anime responsible. It’s a sad reflection of social progress that such an undertaking was even necessary, but for the company it was a choice of pragmatism over idealism.
Its always funny how when a religious debate comes up Christianity always gets bashed, but at least this time around its unbiased and Christianity is not solely blamed for all the world problems.
And as for Hitler, would it not make sense that if i wanted to rally support for a country that i would appeal to their predominant religion whether Lutheran, Muslim or whatever.
So Hitler claims to be a Christian, does that really make him one? Considering the Nazi’s believed that “Those who preached love and tolerance, “in contravention to the factsâ€, were said to be “slave†or “false†religions” , which ironically the Christian bible and all Christian denominations encourage. Lets not forget that Hitler was well into the occult and also into paganism. (Now does this look like he was a Christian to anyone, and i am not going to started on the antisemitism) Lets also take note that he persecuted Christian churches that rejected his dickery. So Hitler is not a Christian i don’t care what anyone says because even Jesus rejected his dickery (evident from Jesus’ teachings).
What I am trying to say is that people have a right to believe in God if they want, and we shouldn’t put the blame on beliefs which preach love, compassion and most importantly killing people is wrong, but rather the problem is people with twisted views on the world who take beliefs and twist it to promote their own personal agenda.
But the again they are the religious nut cases who genuinely believe they are killing for God and IT IS most often in contradiction to the religion they claim to be part of. A lot of people are just stupid, psychotic and deluded thats just it really. So lets not blame Jesus lets blame all the psychotic people and the stupid people that follow and don’t realise what they are saying is morally wrong.
If you are also going to blame Christianity for all the world problems and keep referring to the Crusades and inquisition and Roman Catholic Empire (which is fair enough considering they all claimed to be Christians and were doing it for God etc),then quote or reference a section in the bible where Jesus himself explicitly or implicitly said, “go forth and spread the word with the sword and kill every one who doesn’t believe what we believe and while you are at it conquer the world and make everyone pay to go to heaven because we need the money, (that is not the definition of offering), also we hate blacks, jews, weird looking people living on the land we want to conquer and muslims so give them hell while you are at it!” Which is a fair synopsis of what happened, would anyone disagree? I know this wasn’t about Christianity it was about Islam, but forgetting what ever i believe putting the blame on people’s belief in God, (which ever it is), is not the answer. Look at what they believe if it preaches been good things then its not the problem, (If it preaches bad things then it is), but rather put the blame on people who are obviously using it for their own thirst for power, wealth and hatred, and those who follow them and don’t use their own sense of what is right or wrong or just follow it in order to justify their own prejudice or anger. I guess i’m done rambling here, men i am so incoherent.
What little i learned about islam in my religion class suggests that it is as idealistic and reasonable as christianity, when both are at their best. That doesnt change that people who claim to, and believe that they are, christian/muslim/whatever go directly against the teachings of their religion.
Seems that many here didn’t understand why Muslims are enraged whenever someone put our God, Prophet and our Koran in inappropriate position. I’ll state the 6 core of our, the Muslim’s faith here:
1. Believe in God (Allah)
2. Believe in Angels
3. Believe in Holy Books (Torah,Bible, Zabur(i dont know what the name in English) and Koran)
4. Believe in Prophets (all Prophets)
5. Believe in resurrection(after the end of world) and Judgement Day
6. Believe in predestination
If you look at those six cores, you’ll find why Muslims can’t tolerate when our God, Koran and our Prophet are insulted, or put in an inappropriate position, intentionally or not.
Many of you says that people of other religion didnt fret much when people make fun of their religion, why Muslim cannot do so etc. FYI, we Muslims deeply respect our religion. If you respect something, will you not get angry whenever someone insult that something you respect? If you said that Muslim are oversensitive in this matter, it is not because we are extremist, but because you people did not respect your own religion.
Some might say that even Muslim do things that contradict their own belief. However, the majority don’t, and you cannot judge the whole Muslims just based on the minority.
Also, we Muslim respect other religion too, therefore you will not see an appropriate Muslim makes fun of other people prophets etc. Many of the insult comes from the non-Muslim itself. If we did talk bad about, for example, Christian, we didnt talk bad about their religion, but rather their actions and point-of-view
For Muslims here who said that the response(halting the manga and anime) are oversensitive, you have put your otaku-ism above your own religion.
p/s:the six cores I mentioned is directly translated from Malay Language, so there might be difference from what the English speakers know
I cant speak for anyone else, but in my case i understand perfectly why they are upset. I just dont care. Delusional fantasies should not get special treatment just because it falls under the religion labal.
Most of them are not nearly as serious about it as they pretend to be anyway. I remember during the comics debacle, they didnt want danish bread in their shops. So they renamed it to something like Allahs Tears or Heart or Spleen or whatever it was and sold it anyway.
The thing that really got to me during that period was the fact that they stopped importing danish medicine. Food, electronics etc i dont care about, but the fact that some of their own people who might not give a damn about Allah would die just because of fanatical beliefs is terrible.
Exiled_Gundam:
It’s fine for people to believe in whatever they want unless it interferes with the lives of others.
Now, can you really say that what happened to Danish interests around the world was just “anger”? Why is it that certain people are so angry about an insult to a religion which they clearly do not adhere to?
I didn’t judge Muslims by the actions of the minority, and the fact that you seem to think so is a proof of the very over-sensitivity that is the crux of my argument. The fact that people such as yourself, moderate Muslims who abhor violence, can rationally defend the actions of that violent minority, is a sign of how well the few extremists have embedded themselves in the religion as a whole, projecting their own indignation as that of the whole.
When anything bad is even insinuated about the Islamic extremists, moderate Muslims take it to be an insult against the whole religion. Yet when Islamic extremists commit crimes against the teachings of their own religion, moderate Muslims play the “oh they are a minority” card and conveniently stay silent when it is their turn to speak up against such crimes.
I would say that this political climate gives refuge to extremists and makes it extremely difficult for anyone to raise legitimate concerns without being branded as anti-Islam.
Respect cannot be gained through coercion. If Muslims feel that their religion is not being respected, then anger and hatred will only make it worse, especially when it is clearly not justified or way out of proportion to the original perceived insult.
[quote]I cant speak for anyone else, but in my case i understand perfectly why they are upset. I just dont care. Delusional fantasies should not get special treatment just because it falls under the religion labal.[/quote]
And I too believe the same. Feel free to protest but death threats are over board and make you nothing but a killer. Any god that would make you kill over something so meaningless is nothing more than the devil himself. Not saying thats what all Islam beieves and its not like any of that mystical bull is real. Really, I can’t understand why I should believe any holy book is any more real than any fary tale. And I don’t find any of them well written, their confusing to read and contridict themseveles so much it makes my head hurt.
Quite an interesting post here, I enjoyed reading about it.
@Exiled: Just wondering, how does being offended by others justify murder of innocents who are not involved in the affair? I understand why extremists are upset, but I cannot comprehend why they choose to attack those not involved with the issue in any way! If people are truly offended, and don’t just want an excuse to kill people, then go out, be peaceful, and simply state that this offends you. You are not going to get very far in society by killing the innocents of a world in which you wish to change. If terrorists truly want “change”, they wouldn’t go killing innocents who aren’t involved.
Being a Jew, I notice that most terrorism against us is not for “change”, it is merely hatred and murder which somehow is “justified” in the eyes of some. If Hamas truly wanted an equal Palestinian state, they would talk diplomatically with Israel. Instead, they go out blowing up buses and kindergartens, killing individuals who are not related in the issue whatsoever. Also notice that those in the Palestinian gov’t who truly seek an equal Palestinian state have been targeted by Hamas often! Abbas has been going into peace talks very deeply with Israel, and many fear Hamas will try to assassinate him, as multiple threats have been confirmed. This is my justification for why terrorism is not for a cause, it is just “justified” murder.
I take offense when people mock Judaism, as I respect my religion deeply. I don’t go out blowing myself up, killing innocent civilians who had nothing to do with my dismay. This is the difference between extremism and “respecting your religion”, between extreme Muslims and other extreme religious groups.
On a final note, I hate PC. Political correctness can go die, for all I care. People end up offending others more by trying to be PC than they do just acting normally in front of a minority group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations#Islamic
You would be surprised how many Islamic terrorist groups there are. I counted at least 20 or so on the official list, but only 3 or 4 on lists of other religions. This is the true difference between extremist Muslims and any other types of extremists. For reasons I cannot comprehend, extremist Muslims are for some reason more violent than other extremists. I would most likely presume the common dilution of Jihad to be the reason why.
The lesser Jihad is the more violent side, and the greater Jihad is the accurate, common side. The greater Jihad focuses on inner struggle, while the lesser Jihad responds violently to any “attacks” on Islam. There are many misinterpretations in regards to Jihad, which have been used as a false justification to kill senselessly.
I read that article about that radical Christian who murdered the Abortionist doctor. Quite shocking that people would turn religious beliefs into carefully planned out murder. Luckily, these events are not very common in today’s society, so it isn’t that huge of a problem.
There are probably more terrorist groups because the regions where there are many Muslims (East Mediterranean, etc.) happen to also be areas of high conflict.
Sometimes the conflict is related to the religion (holy land of Jerusalem), other times it is because of the polarity of economic power (countries with oil). There are probably other factors, but these are the two that I can currently think of.
If the country you are living in is unstable, religion will only force people to ‘choose’ sides and also act, a la Salem Witch Hunts.
Without economic stability, the Middle East will never become a peaceful region.
We love death. The U.S. loves life. That is the difference between us two.
Osama bin Laden
That is what makes the extremist so dangerous today, even the war today is impossible to win. It is against religious fanatics not a nation or group of people.
Excellent point, as some has said there are some crazy Christians out there like the army of god loons but when they commit a crime everyone will denounce them. Muslims never ever denounce any of the extremist attacks; I have never seen anyone take a stand against the extremist. They just let it go and do as you say play the “they are a minority cardâ€
Common man, the guys that commited 911 where top of the line students who came from stable families. Same goes for the guys that bombed London and Madrid. Dubai, UAE and Saudi Arabia are countries that are very stable economically but people still flock to Iraq and Afghanistan to blow themselves up. When you go to the mosque and the Imams qotes the Quran saying Sura (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” then no matter if you are an oil man or a farmer you heed the call
-_________-”
Why are you making such a big fuss about it?
Well Considering that’s the animator fault for not confirming WTF is he copy/paste in the animation,We should blame him :P
as for the anime “JoJo’s Bizzare Adventure” I never heard of it O_o
none of my School ever heard about it’s “thing” :S
hmmm…
as For Terrorists I don’t Think they’re real “Muslims”. They’re Terrorists who wants to represent islam as their guide! :S
none of us is agreed about bin laden’s actions
– That’s For now :D
Yours Truly
-SagaZ
@Dan
Since when I said Islam justify murder of innocent just because some people offended us? If you want to talk about suicide bombings, that isn’t the reaction to the offence, it was more related to Middle-East conflicts.
In the Danish case, the issue could be calmed earlier if the one who created/published the comic apologized and stop publishing it. Instead, they defend their actions by saying that it was the freedom of speech (in which later resulted to riot as we know today). I personally did not approve sending death threat for this issue, but when we ask politely, sometimes people just don’t want to listen….
In Jojo’s case, did us Muslim send death threats? No, right? And many people questioned why the sales of the manga and anime have to be halted because of this matter. Well, a mistake will still remain as mistake, no matter it was intentional or not. You guys want to say that it is ok to leave a mistake uncorrected if it was not intentional? The halting is just a way to correct a mistake, yet you guys want to let that mistake go uncorrected.
Well, Japanese was also responsible for not understanding the things they put into the anime. I just remember a funny things in one of Gundam Wing episode, when OZ examining Heero, the suppose-to-be examination screen that contains examination data instead have text from Adobe Photoshop manuals.
We didnt apologize because there was nothing to apologize for. People can be offended over anything, but that doesnt automatically make it an insult.
In the western world you have the right to be offended. And thats all the right you have. You dont get to dictate what other people can say, or in this case, draw.
@Guner
There’s lie the mistake. The Westerner think that everybody must follow what they do.
You said that people can be offended over anything, but that doesnt automatically make it an insult. Which means some of the things that may offend people is an insult. In the Danish comics case, the comics was CLEARLY an insult to us Muslim.
You also said that we dont get to dictate what other people can say. OK, if that is the case, if i said your mom is a backstreet prostitute, it is not wrong for me to said it? And if I said it in front of you, you will not punch me or anything? Relate it to the Danish comics case.
Meh, I’m a Muslim myself and I too find that those Middle East people are always overreacting.
Heck, don’t need to say Middle East, our neighbor Malaysia is almost just as bad and overreactive.
Then again, it could be due to cultural differences. Me being Singaporean and having racial harmony drilled into my head since young, we could almost brag as being the most tolerant people in the world XD
Seriously, I couldn’t care less if they openly create a Muslim villain. It’s just -1- person. I’m a Singaporean Muslim who will never side with Middle Eastern and Malaysian Muslims…
Go to a middle eastern country, any of them, and tell them they need to act like we do. See if you make it out alive.
The difference between us and them is that we dont kill people when we get offended.
We have been over this. Free speech is free. They have absolutely no right whatsoever to tell us what we can print in our own newspapers.
So what if you say that? Who are you? Why does your opinion about a person you have never even met matter in any way?
Thats how they could have reacted. What happens over here has nothing to do with them.
@Guner
“What happens over here has nothing to do with them.”
Well, insult is an insult regardless of location.
“They have absolutely no right whatsoever to tell us what we can print in our own newspapers.”
However that doesnt mean you can write anything in your newspaper. Know what the word “respect” means?
@Qad
So you’re okay with this Jojo issue, and the Danish comics too? So that is the level of your faith to Islam…
Respect is earned. They have earned negative respect.
And if you are going to point fingers, i suggest you start with the burned embassies and murders.
Know what the word “respect†means?
But its obvious that the anime isn’t trying to be insulting. This is just being petty over something thats meanlingless. Besides, if your insulted then too bad, the world doesn’t exist just to kiss Islam’s ass and make sure its not insulted.
@Guner
You’ll still Alive if you Come Over and Said that… >_>
And We aren’t “Overreacting”…
“And if you are going to point fingers, i suggest you start with the burned embassies and murders.”
AHA! ok…
ehm… as for embassies as I “know” Danish Government didn’t pay attention to our request to stop the comics from being spread
for underpaid illustrator. danish took a side :O, they refused to shut the embassies … What should we do? Go over there and say “yo! thnx for insulting our prophet” I don’t think so >_>
as for murders, is there any? :O
it’s a death-threat letters :S
I for one Wouldn’t bother to send a death-threat for some underpaid cartoonists… “didn’t you ask yourself WHY HE DREW THOSE Cartoons?”
——
as for the anime, There’s nothing >_>, maybe some anger Imams took a stand…
and as for the death-threat it’s A DEATH-THREAT not A death ticket >_>
-SagaZ
The government cant tell the press what to do. They have no control over it. They told the middle east that.
Not only did the extremists overreact, they knowingly targeted the wrong people and organizations. And idiots like you are playing along with it.
And yes, people were killed. Not a lot because most of us were smart enough to stay the hell away, knowing exactly what would happen.
@bigdeath
I was referring to the Danish comic case. Jojo’s case is purely a mistake.
I mentioned “respect” because you Westerner values freedom of speech to much, till the point that it justify an insult, and disrespect others. Don’t think if you’re okay to make fun of your own religion, it is okay also to make fun of other people religion. It just didnt work that way.
On the contrary, I feel like disrespecting every thing under the sun, my family, friends, religion, Fairy Tale holy books like the koran, your momma, especially your momma, and god bless America because I don’t have to worry about death threats just for being an insensitive dick.
You can be offended all you want, any god that would say to do anything other than to ignore petty insults ia a pathetic and childish god.
God, you guys are slow. I don’t even know where to begin.
First of all, I’m not surprised that people are angry. Is it that strange to be angered over a guy who tried to conquer Britain with zombies reading the holy book of your religion before sending hordes of your own people on suicide missions to kill some Japanese kid? It sure isn’t, if you ask me.
Does this mean I’m on their side? No. Hell no. Shueisha overreacted to the threats of a prudish minority, and created the stunning clusterfuck we see now.
They didn’t need to. They just preferred to pick the easy way. All this talk about ‘catering to a religion using overplaced political correctness’ is off base. It has little at all to do with Islam. They just don’t want trouble. There was a similar incident a while back where ‘The Midwestern Teen Sex Show’ made a joke comparing Cancer patients to Pedophiles. It had a similar effect; Anger, death threats, letters,… but it had nothing to do with religion.
You see? It’s all about offending an idea. They aren’t doing anything wrong by temporarily pulling the series. They’re just preventing trouble down the road.
I think your post is inaccurate and contradictory.
The Middle East has enough issues dealing with people planning daily to steal their oil to worrk about some anonymous Japanese manga that no one has heard of. Readers from the ME that replied to your post have all acknoglwged never hearing about it. So where do you come up with ‘death threats’ against companies and the Middle East attacking the manga.
You also said that you are cool with Caucasians being depicted as baddies in movies (your logic being, so why can’t Muslims accept that). Well, you are not comparing apples to apples here. You are comparing a religion to race. Share with your readers any recent articles about a ‘Christian’ murder or a rapist coming as a headline… err, don’t think you will find too many of those.
You also seem to have the incorrect conception that most Muslims live in the Middle East (hence why they were the ones who – were incorrectly – offended in your opinion). There are more Muslims in Indonesia than the whole Middle East believe it or not. But you are following the common stereotype being memorised to you via mainstream corporate media.
And oh… I really think putting a screenshot of the Quran in an anime is a poor offsite by a person! If you really want to believe so ya!
I say you should just stick to anime; something you know about
Your first argument is a non sequitur. They have issues, I have issues, you have issues. So what? Does it bear any significance to the current discussion?
Your implied assertion that because not everyone in the Middle East knows about this issue means that no one in the Middle East knows about it is equally preposterous. Clearly some people did know about this, and a bunch of them in over 300 online forums were upset over it.
As for my example being inappropriate for the situation? Fine. So tell me if any of the following has been an issue: Bible Black, Christian symbols used in Hellsing and Jewish symbols used in Evangelion. These are shows where religious symbols were actually introduced intentionally. Or how about the depiction of Catholic terrorists in various Hollywood movies based on the Ireland conflict?
And you say that it is my assumption that most Muslims live in the Middle East? That’s more like your assumption, because I did not say that. I could even go as far as to say that you are merely following the common stereotype that English-speaking people are ignorant of Muslim countries.
It’s rather presumptuous of you to assume that I was unaware of the fact that Indonesia is the world’s most populous Muslim nation. I mean, it’s not like I live in the country next to it and occasionally travel there. (But you apparently didn’t know that, and thus committed the very bigotry you accuse me of.)
The only reason I refer to the Middle East in my post is because 1) the original article in Japanese specifically mentions the Middle East as the source of the complaints, and 2) Arabic is explicitly identified to be the language of the fansubs involved and Southeast Asian Muslims don’t generally speak Arabic.
Not that it bears any significance where they are from, since that has nothing to do with my main argument.
I say you should look into the consistency of your own arguments before you post. The whole “mainstream corporate media” card doesn’t work so well when your own arguments are equally nonsensical.
I am going to agree with everything that Guner has said.
Yo, I’m not taking sides but I’m just going to say my 2 cents.
1) Islam is a peaceful religion, Only a few lines of the whole Koran say anything about violence, and even then those are only when Islam is underthreat ie, a planned attempt to wipe out Muslims like what happened to the Jews. Its only recently that some fundie(fundamentalists) and extremies(extremists) have decided to pick and choose those violent parts and claim the “West” is a threat to Islam.
2) Many Immams(sp?) and Mullahs codemn any act of intolerance against anyone, and abhor terrorism as a “perversion of Islam”. However, they aren’t usually reported on because lets face it what’s a better news story, some crazy Islamic Leader who wants America burn’t to the ground(Note: many Extremie Mullah’s aren’t actually officially trained mullahs and technically aren’t allowed to give out Fawtahs(sp?)ie, the Muslim equivalent of something between a Sermon and the word of the pope.) or some rational calm Islamic leader who wants peace?
3) Lots of Muslims have their Mullahs are their only source of information about many affairs. (My theory as to what happened in this debacle is that a few fundie Mullah’s saw their Kids watching the anime, spoke about it at the next mosque service with some exagerations and then people think its something horrible, when in fact they probable wouldn’t care)
4) Muslims USED TO BE the most tolerant people on Earth. Up until the 1940’s-50’s, it was common in the middle east for christian arabs to go to a mosque, muslims into a synagogue, etc. However, once Israel moved in with western backing, they began to mistrust the west. After Operation Ajax ( Actual U.S/British operation that diposed the leader of Iran and replaced him with the King who was then serving a role that was largely ceremone, this made Iran and the U.S. friends, until people threw away the government the west put in the 70’s and led to hostile Iran-Western Relations,) this grew, and after several more both actual and percieved abuses by the west, Israel, and other states, Arabs have become hyper-sensitive to anything that ‘foriegners’ say about them because when they trusted outsiders they got rightfully elected leaders removed (just google Operation AJAX and Operation Condor and Iran-Contra to see way arabs and south americans don’t trust the West with anything anymore)
TL;DR…There are a lot of background issues that you have to take into account before you make judgements about any group of people. Arabs are not exceptions. I don’t really have any opinion just sharing knowledge…..
=====Random Quote===
Good and Evil just depend on if the gun is pointing at you or, your enemy
oh yeah forgot, something…about the whole religion is dangerous thing. It’s a commonly proven by science fact, that racism, jingoism, nationalism,sectarianism(correct term for different religions or sects) etc, are hard-wired into both human and animal genome. Example, the original study test monkeys from the same species, but different areas and groups. When one monkey from the second group was placed in group 1, he was singled out, and harrassed, and other things.
My point is that as long as their is any sort of unifying characteristic among a group of people, they will tend fell superior because of it. Some Christians (me not included in this) feel better than everyone because they feel that by being Christian they will go to heaven and be happy with their God, while others go to hell. Same for many other religions including Islam and even among some Athiest I’ve meet who think that by virtue of being and Atheist they are more ‘enlightened’ the rest of the ‘blutthering massess’. But this also extends to race, with some people think that because of their skin tone/genetic origin they are just naturally superior to others of different skin color, language/accent, every has meet someone who has been ridiculed for their way of speech or what they speak, case in point ‘Engrish’ what many of us know as funny asian language to English mistranslations was actually a way for Americans (White, Black, Hispanic, etc.) to mock Japanese immigrants, who spoke English but ,because Japanese has very few to no words with the soft ‘l’ sound , couldn’t say words containing ‘l’s the write way, so Lollipop becomes Rorripop etc.
Other ways that this superiorty happens is wealth (we all know rich snobs, who think we are so beneath them due to not having 3 cars by age 16), Gender( we all probably have also meet the oligatory guy who thinks “women are inferior”, or women who think men are the source of all evil), and Sexual Orientation (sure everyone has made one or two “gay” jokes from time to time but there is always one guy who honestly believes “homosexuals are sub-human “etc.) and others that I won’t go into such as nationalism (cough*South Africa and Russia*<–google them along with nationalism or xenophobia)
So basically religion is not some unique, thing that takes sane people and makes them kill each other. Leaders are always looking for ways to enforce their own radical views, and so long as any of the above exist, they will just move from dividing issue to issue in an effort to stay in power and enforce thier will.
Tl;DR As long as all humans beings aren’t exactly the same, their will always be conflict based on some sort of percieved “issue” or “unreconsiable” difference. Religion is just one of many devisive things that can be used to drive people to the fringes.
Wow, I need to learn to be concise, and to spell better
I just have a small addition… I lot of you have said religious people are crazy but you ignore one major fact…for every mass murderer christianity produces there are hundreds of peace activists, social workers, farmers, LEFT-wing activists, etc. But because of a few nutjubs, we are all crazy….
Oh yeah…you will probably name the following about way religion is bad
Crusades <— At this time not only was everyone religious, the heads of the catholic church were extremely corrupt and said “If you go free the promised land you go to heaven ….or if you pay us” so basically all the noble paid for tickets to heaven called indulgences. Meanwhile, poor people had a choice had to go fight because if they didn’t people would question why they wouldn’t want to go to heaven, they would then be labeled a heretic for basically standing against the church,(and standing up for the MAIN facet of christianity and what Jesus actually said was most important in his 2 HOURS of speaking in the bible (lots of the Bible was taken out or edited by King James because it didn’t suit him, and parts were thrown in))and killed/left to die
Holocaust <–FYI They killed Christians too (and Blacks, Arabs,Slavs, and anyone else that looked different). They killed all NON-Aryans. Aryans refer to any blond haired, blue eyed, fair skinned, person, and at the time Jews hadn’t mixed with other races so they were easily identified. Also, It was RACIAL, and BASED ON REVENGE not Religious. Hitler was really not a devout christian and only used some ‘Christian’ themes to rally the German people (who were mostly christian) behing a NATIONALIST Movement (Nazi comes from the German Abbrevieation of the NATIONALIST SOCIALIST PARTY or something to that effect….) Hilter felt, and brain washed/repressed Germans into believing/not speaking out against his view that Jews had exploited Germany after WWI and had caused the economic melted down in that period, also Hilter tried to conquer/kill all other nations because he was a believer in Freidrich Ratzel’s School of Geopolitics, which believed in a sense that a nation is like a living being and most “eat” other nations and expand across more lands to survive. Also, Hilter being part Jewish, suffered some EXTREME racial self-hatred as is common among African Americans (Richer African Americans sometimes purposefully don’t associate their families with other African Americans because they feel superior to them), which all coallesed into the Holocaust
Inquistion <–The Spanish dude explained this pretty well, Muslims invade and bring Jews with them into cities in the south, Christians North fights them off and goes overboard trying to remove all traces of “invaders” from the area. This is not unusually just not at this scale, after many wars were territory is called the ethinic minority in the area is usually treated as lower people, kicked out, or killed.
PLEASE, stop blaming religion for all your problems….The problem with humanity is that we are all human and have faults, that cobble together and form bigger problems. While, you do have impressive vocabularies, your perception of that their are “issues” that can be solve to fix the worlds problems is incorrect. The nature of humanity is to destroy, but as universal law states “you can’t destroy something without either making it something else or making something completely new as a sideeffect”
Total world Peace, Justice, Universal Harmony, etc is if ever human was lobotomised at birth or had all non essential hormones drained from their bodies (Find the This American Life Special on Testorone and skip to the story about life without it to here the effects from a personal view point)
TL;DR Stop blaming the belief in supernatural/God/more to life than this mortal coil for the fact some people are just F***d up in the head
FYI, Bush DOES NOT represent the majority of view of the world’s christians who are in fact mostly socialist (Africa, A Good Chunk of European Christians, South Americans.)
First, a quick typo in the article. “The original scene in the manga did not show the contain of the book.” I think “contain” should probably be “contents”, though not having seen the anime or manga, removing “contain of the” might also correct the sentence.
As for the comments here, I pretty much agree with Gunar as well.
What I find hilarious in the comments though are the “no true Scotsman” arguments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Hitler was clearly a Christian, a fucked up Christian, but he believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ, which makes him a Christian by definition. And yet M claims he’s not a true Christian because he doesn’t act like one. [eyeroll]
M copies this line from Wikipedia: “Those who preached love and tolerance, ‘in contravention to the facts’, were said to be ‘slave’ or ‘false’ religions”, and follows it up with this, “which ironically the Christian bible and all Christian denominations encourage.” You’ve got to be kidding me. Please read your Bible. For example Deuteronomy 13:12-18, where it recommends that if you find some people in another town are worshiping other gods then you are to slaughter the entire town and burn it to the ground. That is NOT a religion of love and tolerance.
Since M demands Jesus quotes, Jesus supposedly said, “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! […] Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.” (see Luke 12:49-53 or also Matthew 10:34-39) Jesus also told his followers that if they did not have a sword they should sell their cloak so they could buy a sword. (see Luke 22:36) And Jesus said that the Old Testament laws still stood (see Matthew 5:17-20 or Luke 16:17), which includes Deut 13:12-18.
SagaZ makes the same argument for Muslims saying, “as For Terrorists I don’t Think they’re real ‘Muslims’. They’re Terrorists who wants to represent islam as their guide! :S none of us is agreed about bin laden’s actions” [sic.]. This is absurd, since it basically asserts that no terrorist can be a true Muslim, despite the fact that terrorists who follow the Islamic religion exist, simply because they’re terrorists. “I don’t like those people, therefore they’re not one of us,” is not valid reasoning, when the definition of “us” includes the people you’re trying to exclude.
As for bin Laden’s actions, actually there were some Muslims that cheered about 9/11. Certainly most Muslims did not approve, but it is false to say that none agreed with bin Laden’s actions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrations_of_the_September_11%2C_2001_attacks
Osama bin Laden and most (if not all) of the 9/11 terrorists were Muslim, so certainly some Muslims approved.
The point is, in any large group there are some bad people. It is poor logic to claim that those bad people aren’t really members, when they fulfil the basic requirements for being in that group, simply because you don’t like their other actions. If you want to root out a problem you have to be honest about it, as self-deceit allows you to ignore or avoid the problem. The Muslims who get upset and refuse to admit that some Muslims are terrorists only contribute to the problem, rather than working to solve it.
I’m an atheist myself, and while they certainly don’t represent atheism in general or as a whole, I have no problems admitting that Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong were atheists as well. Groups should not deny their worst members, they should hold them up as examples of what not to become.
(Apologies for the length.)
You are not crazy because you have a few nutjobs, you are crazy because you are crazy.
There are plenty of other groups that has their share of yahoos, but at least some of them are sane.
I invite you to justify being religious if you feel confident enough. With something that doesnt sum up as “the bible says so”.
Thats not what it means, its just the bastardized modern version. Many of Hitlers top people were not blond haired and blue eyed, and Hitler himself may have been part jewish.
Islam is the new USSR for the west an enemeny an unknown something to unite them against, there was no real news of “radical-islamists” in the not so distant past it has become an extravaganza now and this minority and yes they are a minority are getting wayyyyyyyy too much air time on major news corporations. Alot of the news casters use words like islamists and fundamentalist, someone following fundamentals isnt someone who wishes to attack, little things like these anger the rest of the muslim world alot of which lives in poverty. These people feel and rightfully so that they are being harrassed and showed in a negative light in the media, much the same way Russians were in the US media back during the Iron Curtain. I feel that normally it is not that offensive but in recent circumstances that it should not have been published. Freedom for speech comes with a right to respect.
There is a simple solution for the not-terrorist muslims. Round up the extremists and get rid of them for us.
Easier said than done, even if they were willing to. There were over 6 million extremists who wanted to see my country burn at one point. Thats more people than we have in my country. Half the world was off limits for a while under risk of death. When a minority becomes that big, it stops being useful to think of them as a minority.
No it doesnt. Its exactly that kind of clauses and stipulations that messes up communication and helps to keep religious ideas safe even in this increasingly secular age. People are too damn sensitive on both sides.
Respect is still earned. Even if you are religious.
Well, my 2 cents. I think the muslims do have the right to get offended. This is because it does involve a reference to their religion, no matter how minor it is.
The problem is when death threats and violence comes into the picture. Although I believe everyone have the right to feel offended, bringing in violence, death threats or even the idea of violence is what I feel are causing the problems around the world right now.
I’m not saying any side is right or wrong, but I feel that things should be settled peacefully. On one side, I feel that groups of various religions should be sensitive to people of different religions and respect them. The other side, I feel that the offended group should try to settle this though peaceful means and not bring violence into the picture. I do not think any person of any religion or beliefs should be respected if the person do not respect life itself, especially the lives of innocents.
Thus in this case, even though some might believe that they are over-sensitive, my view is that since it is their religion, we should respect their views. However, bringing in violence, death threats is something that should not be condoned or continued.
I agree that it’s gay for them to be attacked like that. It’s just a cartoon. And the muslims haven’t exactly made themselves loved in any way shape or form.
Guner, do yourself a favor and learn something about christianity, judaism, islam and history, you are severely lacking in knowledge. Why would anyone respect an atheist who claims that and that about different religions when he clearly has no clue?
On to the rest: muhammed (soh) himself had people who insulted him assassinated. Why then should not muslims kill those who insults their prophet or islam? They’ve done it before, on his orders. Especially when reading the verse below?
koran 33:21 “You have in (Muhammad) the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern of conduct for any one to follow”
or
“Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.” (33:21)
In regards to respect: _I_ choose what or whom to respect. I respect those who try to do good, who tries to be better humans, are kind to others etc. You know what I mean.
I do not respect rapists, pedophiles, mass murderers, robbers, warlords, torturists or liars. muhammed (soh) was all this and more, why should I respect him or his followers?
Now, there are some who claim to be muslims while living good lives, who does not act as muhammed would. They are worthy of respect. Respect is something you earn, not something you claim or have a right to.
Read sira and hadith if you doubt my claims about muhammed (soh), but you will sleep better if you don’t.
Be more specifik. Exactly what are you accusing me of?
I clearly accuse you of lacking knowledge about religions and history. Your atheism thus sounds like a “I do not know anything about religions, but they are bad”. This is especially the case when you manage to define hitler as a christian.
You do not know the difference between judaism (law), christianity (mercy) and islam (submission). You will never hear a believing jew or christian with knowledge of islam EVER accept that the muslims worship the same god as they do (and jews will object to the trinity).
Your claim that hitler was a christian displays a lack of historical and theological knowledge. Let me do this the fast way: If someone belonging to a religion which forbids killing kills, is it the person or religion which is at fault? If a person brought up as an atheist turns to religion, will he still be an atheist?
And this american president: whatever a person calling himself a christian does is not necessarily a part of his religion. If someone belonging to a religion which forbids killing kills, is it the person or religion which is at fault?
Do I have to mention stalin and mao? (Though it can be argued that their actions were a natural result of their utopian beliefs)
The same would go for islam, but for one difference: islam as muhammed (soh) taught it is clearly accepting of killing infidels (and doing some other rather baser deeds). Whose fault is it then, the person or the religion? Both.
Do not trust what your school told you about islam, get a book about muhammed’s (soh) life (local mosque, library or book store) and learn yourself. My school did not teach islam correctly either.
Lots of words, but you are still not saying much.
There are as many definitions of what it means to be christian as there are christians. Yours is not more correct than Hitlers or the old lady next door or any of the others, and the only real authority on that topic has been dead a few thousand years.
What they will admit is irrelevant to the facts. The Abrahamic religious all have the same historical roots, and each are inspired by and build on the others to varying degrees.
Even ignoring that, there can by definition only be one omnipotent god. When more than one group worship one such god, it must necessarily be the same.
And you are wrong again. There are many differences in christianity, yes, but only on the smaller things.
And stop that insane relativism. When God expressively forbids killing it is not possible to claim that you can kill within christianity. Seeing as you also are unable to spot the difference in values in nazism and christianity I will really have to recommend that you learn something. Ignorance is not “cool”. Let me end this nonsense by citing hitler:
“The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity … The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.
I’ll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews.”
and
““…but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years wil certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity…my regret will have been that I couldn’t behold its demise.—
-“Even ignoring that, there can by definition only be one omnipotent god. When more than one group worship one such god, it must necessarily be the same.”
Yes and no. Both ASPECTS cannot be true. If I believe God is inherently good and you believe He is inherently evil even you can see that at least one of us is wrong.
Ahh, and since this should provoke some thought: marx, stalin and mao were all atheists.
I should have known I was inviting trouble by choosing this name…